山东当代艺术家应邀参加第56届威尼斯双年展圣马力诺国家馆

　　Contemporary Shandong artists are invited to participate in the San Marino National Museum of the fifty-sixth Venice Biennial

　　许徳奇：艺术没有那么沉重

　　XU Deqi: art is not that heavy

　　谈到威尼斯双年展，艺术圈的人们并不陌生，威尼斯双年展诞生于1895年，至今已有上百年的历史，是欧洲乃至全世界最重要的艺术活动之一。被人喻为艺术界的盛会。威尼斯双年展带有很强的探索性，代表着艺术发展的趋势，全世界的艺术家都以能够参加威尼斯双年展为荣。陈逸飞、徐冰、方力钧、王广义、蔡国强、吕胜中等前卫艺术家是中国较早进入威尼斯双年展主展的一批艺术家。2015年5月，第五十六届威尼斯双年展即将举办，山东师范大学副教授、著名当代艺术家许徳奇先生应邀参加此次展览的圣马力诺国家馆。记者就此专访了正在紧锣密鼓准备展览作品的许徳奇。

　　When it comes to the Venice Biennale, artists are no strangers of it. Born in 1895, the Venice Biennale has a history of more than one hundred years, and is one of the most important artistic activities in Europe and around the world. Taken as the festival of the art circles, Venice Biennale has a strong sense of exploration and represents the trend of the development of art; therefore, artists around the world take great pride in participating in the Venice Biennale. Chen Yifei, Xu Bing, Fang Lijun, Wang Guangyi, Cai Guoqiang, Lu Shengzhong are among the avant-garde artists from China who enter into the Venice Biennale very early. In May 2015, the 56th Venice Biennale will be held, and Mr. XU Deqi, associate professor from Shandong Normal University and a famous contemporary artist, is invited to participate in the exhibition of the San Marino National Museum. This reporter has the honor to have interviewed Mr. XU Deqi who is busily preparing his works for the exhibition.

　　济南时报：您以前参与过威尼斯双年展吗？

　　许徳奇：之前参与过三次，但并没有进入主展，是威尼斯的画廊在双年展期间为我举办的展览。威尼斯双年展是一个艺术盛会，双年展期间艺术家、评论家、记者云集，是艺术家展示自己的好机会。不过，进入国家馆还是比较难的。

　　Ji'nan Times: did you participate in the Venice Biennale before?

　　XU Deqi: I have participated in it three times before, but I did not enter the main exhibition; it was the art gallery of Venice that held the exhibition for me during the Venice Biennale. The Venice Biennale is an art festival, and the artists, critics and reporters would gather around it during the Biennial, which is a great chance for the artist to show their talents. However, it is still relatively difficult to enter the National Museum.

　　济南时报：您参与威尼斯双年展的感受是什么？西方的前卫艺术与中国的前卫艺术有什么不同之处？

　　许徳奇：在威尼斯双年展上我很受触动和启发，在这里会感受到西方前卫艺术带给我们的碰撞，说实话，很多东西看不懂，不知道想表现什么，有时会感到迷惘。因为西方文化和东方文化本身就有很大不同。中国太注重传统，注重文化的传承，能够明显地看到一步步是怎么走过来的；而西方的文化一直是反叛传统，不断地突破传统。

　　中国一提到艺术，第一反应往往还是架上绘画。实际上西方早就突破了这种观念。装置、音响、行为，展览上呈现的艺术形式是多种多样的。所以，这种碰撞和交流还是很有意义的。

　　Ji'nan Times: how do you find it in the participation in the Venice Biennale? What is the difference between the western and Chinese avant-garde art?

　　XU Deqi: I was touched and inspired in the Venice Biennale; here you can feel the collision with Western avant-garde art. Honestly speaking, there are a lot of things that I do not understand, I don't know what they want to express and sometimes I feel confused. Because western culture and eastern culture themselves are very different. Chinese culture has always paid great attention to the tradition, and paid attention to the cultural heritage, and you can clearly see how it develops step by step; while western culture has always been rebellious to its tradition and constantly breaking the tradition.

　　In China, when it comes to art, the first reaction is often painting on the easel. In fact, the West has broken this idea a long time ago. Apparatus, sound and action, the art forms showed on the exhibition is various. So, this kind of collision and exchange is very meaningful.

　　济南时报：这次参加威尼斯双年展的有几幅作品？以往在国外展出时，西方观众怎么看待您的作品？

　　许徳奇：大概展出10幅左右，目前正在紧张创作中。我的作品保留了架上绘画的形式，但样式还是西方观众比较欣赏的，我试图把中国文化元素变成通俗易懂的形式，让中国人、西方人都能接受。中国传统绘画里关于禅、道的东西很多，这些元素西方人是很难看懂的。如果给他们讲解，他们也可以理解，但毕竟不像中国人体会那么深。所以，我尽量采用比较直观的形式。以往几次国外展出时，多次出现观众排队与作品合影的情况，而且我的大部分的作品是被西方收藏家收藏，他们对我的作品的认可让我感到欣慰。

　　Ji'nan times: how many works will you bring to the Venice Biennale this time? How did the Western viewers find your work in the past when it was on display in foreign countries?

　　XU Deqi: it will be about 10 works or so, and they are under tense creation currently. My works retain the form of painting on easel, but the style can be appreciated by the Western viewer. I try to express the Chinese cultural elements in a form which is popular and easy to understand, so that both the Chinese and Westerners can accept it. In traditional Chinese painting, there are many things about Zen and Tao which are very difficult for Westerners to understand. If you explain it to them, they can also understand it, but could not as deeply as the Chinese could understand. So, I try my best to use more intuitive forms. There were many time when my works were on show at abroad that viewers lined up to take photos with my works, and most of my works are collected by Western collectors. Their recognition of my work makes me very happy.

　　济南时报：您的《女孩和鱼》系列，就很好地把中国传统元素加入作品中，比如锦鲤、比如罗汉床、比如一些年画的符号。另外您还把一些中国家喻户晓的娱乐明星也呈现在作品中，比如章子怡、舒淇、李冰冰等。这是出于什么考虑？

　　Jinan Times: your series of Girl and Fish is a good example of bring traditional Chinese elements, such as fancy carp, Arhat bed and some symbol of the Spring Festival Pictures.In addition, you have some of the famous Chinese entertainment stars, such as Zhang Ziyi, Hsu Chi, Li Bingbing, etc. in your works. What is the consideration behind it?

　　许徳奇：对，这些代表中国文化的图式，比较直观，一目了然，让画面非常好看，西方人很喜欢这种漂亮、积极、时尚的绘画形式。另外，其中也蕴含着一些丰富的文化意味，想带给观众一些思考。比如，鱼在中国传统文化中既代表财富，又与性和繁衍有关，而现在我们从新闻里看到的中国很多社会现象，基本都脱离不了这两个方面。我描绘女孩和鱼交流的状态，也代表我对当代社会的一些反思。

　　我画一些娱乐圈的名人，是因为这些人在中西方知名度都很高，让大家一看就感觉很熟悉，识别性高，首先吸引你的眼球，先关注了，再有所思考。有时候把中国文化符号直接灌输，不见得效果好。我想先营造一种视觉亲切感。

　　我这次参加威尼斯双年展的还有一个系列，是把西方大师的名画改造一下，加入中国的文化元素，比如在库尔贝、维米尔等人的作品中加入故宫的建筑以及传统工笔画中的人物形象，让西方人既感到熟悉和亲切，又有新鲜感。

　　虽然我画的是波普艺术，传统波普带有一点讽刺和谩骂的意思，但我的波普是用好玩的的方式，表现社会积极的东西。这一点是有所区别的。

　　XU Deqi: yes, these forms of Chinese culture are more intuitive and clear, and can mek the pictures very enjoyable, and the Westerns are very fond of this beautiful, active and fashionable style of painting. In addition, it also contains a number of rich cultural meaning, which is to offer some thinking for the viewer. For example, in traditional Chinese culture, fish is not only a symbol of wealth, but is also involved with sex and reproduction, and as we now see a lot of social phenomenon in China is inseparable from these two basic elements. I described the state of the exchange between girls and fish, which also represents some of my reflections on contemporary society.

　　The reason why I painted some entertainment celebrities is that these people are very well-known both in China and in the West, so that we are very familiar with them at the first glance, the recognition is high, and the first thing is to attract your attention, and then you can think about it. Sometimes, it will not necessarily have good effect if you directly employ symbols of Chinese culture. I want to create a kind of kindness from the visual sense.

　　This time I have another series for the Venice Biennale which is to retouch the famous paintings of Western Masters to add some elements of Chinese culture. For example, add the buildings of the Forbidden City and the traditional Chinese realistic painting characters in the works of Courbet and Vermeer, which will make the Westerners feel familiar and cordial, and a sense of freshness.

　　Although my style is pop and the traditional pop has a tone of irony and invective, my pop is in the style of funny and express the positive side of the society. This is a point of difference.

　　济南时报：您是正宗的学院派出身，为什么从一开始的传统油画走向当代艺术？

　　许徳奇：确实，一开始我的路子是学院派的。1998年我去中央美院进修，本来想参加绘画班，但那届油画助教班没有招收，我阴差阳错进入了批评班。这个班由与吕胜中、徐冰并称为"央美三杰"的尹吉男主持，他当时搞当代艺术批评，请来一批最有影响力的当代艺术家来搞讲座，对我影响很大。当时我有种感觉--中国的架上绘画已经死亡了，最优秀的一批艺术家都在搞当代艺术。我何去何从？后来我用了大概十年时间，探索自己想画什么，想表现什么，抽象的、具象的我都画过。后来随红梅（许徳奇夫人、著名当代艺术家张红梅——记者注）去国外访学，也画了一段时间风景。后来结识了意大利著名策展人、文化使者桑弗先生，他来看我的作品，对我带有时尚元素的作品非常感兴趣，从那时开始，我坚定地沿着这个方向走。所以说，交流很重要。

　　Ji'nan times: you have the authentic origin of academism, then why did you make the change from traditional oil painting to contemporary art?

　　XU Deqi: indeed, I started as a member of academism. Then I went to take a refresher course at the Central Academy of fine arts in 1998 and I wanted to attend the painting classes, but they had no opening for teaching assistant at oil painting class, and I accidentally entered the class of criticism which was presided over by Yin Jinan who was one of the "three brilliants of Central Academy", and the other two were LU Shengzhong and XU Bing. Yin Jinan was engaged in contemporary art criticism, and invited a group of the most influential contemporary artists to give lectures, which had a great influence on me. At that time, I had a feeling that painting on easel in China had died, and the most outstanding artists were engaged in contemporary art. Where do I belong? Then I spent about ten years to explore what I want to paint and what I want to express; I have tried both abstract and figurative. Then I followed Zhang Hongmei (wife of XU Deqi, famous contemporary artist) to go abroad for study visit, and I also painted scenery for a period of time. Later I got acquainted with Mr. Sanfo, famous Italy curator and cultural ambassador. He came to see my works and he was very interested in my works with fashion elements, and from then on, I am firmly following this direction. So, communication is very important.

　　济南时报：您今后的创作打算是什么，打算继续这样画下去吗？

　　许徳奇：我不敢多想。很多人问我，走到今天了，下一步怎么办？说实话，我不知道怎么

　　办，我考虑的是下一张画什么。

　　之前考虑太多，特别是从中央美院回来之后，一直在思考应该怎么办，顺着哪个方向去走。有时候思想跑得越远，越不知道自己要干什么。老想直奔终极目标而去，可眼下干什么呢？不知道。后来才明白，没必要想太多，只想好下一张该画什么就行了。

　　将来怎么样，我没有太明确的目的性。为什么现在画这些，在几年前我也没想过。可以肯定的是：我不想一直都像是在画一张画那样害怕改变自己。

　　Ji'nan times: what is your plan for future creation? Do you intend to continue on in this style?

　　XU Deqi: I don't want to think about it. A lot of people ask me what's my next plan? To be honest, I don't know what to do. What's in my mind is the next painting.

　　I have been thinking too much in the past; especially when I came back from the Central Academy of fine arts, I have always been thinking about what I should do and which way should I follow. And I found that the farther my thought was, the more confused I was. When you always want to go straight to the ultimate goal, you forget what to do at present. So I came to realize that there is no need to think too much about it, and you only need to think about what is your next painting.

　　As to what is going to be in the future, have no clear purposes. I did not think about why I am now painting these in a few years ago. To be sure: I don't want to be as afraid to change myself as I'm painting one picture.

　　首先是让别人有亲切感。能引起他的兴趣，再考虑画里其他问题。中国画家往往太想把一张画里装很多的文化含量，其实把自己的感受加到画里去就可以了，没必要为了文化而文化。其实自己的感受里本身就包含着中国文化。

　　The first thing is to let people have a sense of intimacy, to get their interest, and then to consider other issues in the painting. Chinese artists tend to put a lot of cultural contents in a painting; in fact, you only need to put your own feeling into the painting, and no need to be cultural for culture. In fact, your own feeling itself contains Chinese culture.

　　全国大展里的很多作品极力把对传统文化的一些思考加入作品中，精神负担太重了。作为艺术家来说，绘画本身是一种享受。中国艺术家的使命感太强，总是想承载点什么。我就想把这些东西抛开，艺术没有那么沉重。本身作品画出来就是让人接受的。就像做饭，这饭再有营养，不好吃也没有人去吃。当然，光好吃没营养也不行（笑）。

　　Many works in the national exhibition are trying to put as much thoughts on traditional culture as possible into them and the mental burden is too heavy.

　　As an artist, painting itself is a kind of enjoyment. Chinese artists have so strong s sense of mission that they always want to carry something. I just want to put these things aside, because art is not that heavy. Painting itself is to be accepted, which is just like cooking: no matter how nutritious it is, nobody will eat it if it is not delicious. Of course, it will of no use if it is only delicious without nutrition (laugh).